I plan on fishing for trout in N.E. PA and have a 5wt. 8 1/2 ft. rod. What are the most common size leaders that I should have on me? I was thinking of getting the frog hair 3 pack in 3X, 4X, 5X What is your opinion on knoted vs. tapered leaders. I'm new at this but I'm willing to tie my only leaders if that is a better method. I saw a frog hair kit that came with 14 spools of material and it was about $100.00. Is there a cheaper way to go to start tying my own leaders if that really is a better method?

If you are new to the sport, use the tapered leaders. I'm can't comment on the various leaders you'd need in N.E. PA, but 3X, 4X, 5X and 6X may be good to have in your arsenal. The experts on the forum can tell you the difference between fluorocarbon vs non-fluoro leaders (I believe the fluorocarbon leaders don't float as well). If you think you'll be constantly changing conditions (lakes to small streams), you may want to consider knotless.

I'm realitively new to the sport as well, just saying what's worked for me.

I have toyed around about making my own leaders. I got a book with all the specs like for bass leader, steelie etc. It would be interesting to see how these work compared to the tapered they sell for each.
As a new to the sport fisherman, I would buy the tapered and add tippet to the end. At least till you get the feel and then deside if you want more or want to experiment

I would strongly recommend you tie your own leaders. I've used store bought and self-tied leaders and see no advantage in store-bought leaders other than convenience. I tie all my own leaders now and, by doing so, I figured I've saved a small fortune.

Some will argue that tapered leaders are advantageous over knotted leaders when you fish in weed-infested waters, as there are no knots for the weeds to catch on. I fish heavily weeded waters all the time with knotted leaders and haven't found this to be an issue. Also, I don't believe there is anyone alive who can discern any difference in the casting/turnover characteristics of tapered versus knotted leaders.

$100 for a leader tying kit is excessive. At $4 a spool, for $40, you can assemble your own leader kit with the following spools:

.021 inch
.019
.017
.015
.013
.011
.009
.007 (4X)
.006 (5X)
.005 (6X)

With these spools, you'll be able to tie your own leaders for ANY fly fishing situation you will encounter with your 5 wt. rod.

As far as leader formulas, many books have them. You can also e-mail the manufacturer of a particular leader you like and ask them for the formula (I've done this with Orvis).

Many others like to use the very popular and free LeaderCalc program, which is essentially an Excel file that will calculate leader formulas for you for any length and tippet size leader. I highly recommend you download this program and play with it, I think you will find it VERY educational and useful. It also provides the standard leader formulas used by Orvis and a number of prominent fishermen for various purposes (delicate trout fishing, bass bugging, nymphing, etc.) Here's the link where you can find it: http://globalflyfisher.com/fishbetter/lead...lc/download.php. This program will also allow you to print out labels for your leader wallet, and it has a page that compares the limpness and lb-tests per diameter of various brands of leader material. Check it out, I think you will be impressed. (I've always been amazed that it's actually free.) I think most who've been doing this for a while have availed themselves of this program, as I keep running into folks who try to recommend it to me as the next best thing since sliced bread.

When all is said and done, don't get too hung up on leader formulas. When you see just how many variations there are in acceptible leader design, you will realize that there's not that much to it.

-- Mike

I have to agree with Hair stacker, There are cheaper kits. I get mine from Fly Fishers Paradise here in Central PA. It's about $40. or buy those recommended by H.S. Good site for making your own leaders. If you are fishing gor trout and the water is swift and you're using nymphs, then I would use a 9' 6'' rod or even a 10' with 5/6 wt line and 3X with a 4X tippet. For midges, try a 4X leader with 5X, to a 6X tippet. So you will have a 3X leader with a 4X and a 5X tippets tied on and so on for the 4X leader. Tied to this a 5X and a 6X. Total length of each about 9 to 12 feet. With midges, I like to tie tham on about a 3ft tippet. Makes it easier to tie on to the leader. I hope I haven't screwed you up or totally confused you. It's kind of neat to tie your own leaders and it does save money. Good luck Silver Doc

I fish NE Pa. and the fish on our water are pretty educated and can be a bit leader shy, so I very rarely fish heavier than 5x. It's definitely cheaper to tie your own, but I would find the expense of all Frogs Hair a bit excessive. I do use it for my tippets, but that's about it. Another thing I sometimes do is buy a 7'6" tapered leader and add tippet to bring it to about 10'. i just bought a couple of 6' furled leaders for my 0wt and 1wt and will add tippet to make the entire leader 10 to 11 feet and 7 or 8x.

I agree that tying you own leaders is a great concept. I however fish lakes here that are full of moss. So bad that the knot I use to tie even tippet gets caked with it as does the fly. Sometimes you just ain't gotsa choice

Thanks for all the info. I did find a cheaper kit on the Cabela's website made by Umpqua. I've been reading the Orvis guide to fly fishing and it says that a knotted leader is preferrable over a tapered leader. So I figure while it's cold outside I'll go ahead and order the tying kit with a gift certificate that the wife got me. This way I'll be able to pass the cold winter months tying leaders and figuring out the fly tying kit that she got me for Christmas. Any other advice is appreciated. Thanks everyone and Happy New Year!

One little piece of advise on the fly tying is when you see a fly with the ingrediants below it but no discription on how to tie it, remember that they usually list the ingrediants in the order you attach them to the hook. ex:
hook
thread
tail
ribbing
body
wing
exs.

Excellent point by flygoddess, with the operative word being "usually." Flygoddess has given the standard for the order of citing materials making up a pattern. Unfortunately, some do deviate from it, with the most common deviation being to list a material when it is tied off, rather than tied in, which is two different things. Usually, though, if you study a completed fly, you can tell whether you need to make adjustments in the order of materials given. And after you've been tying for awhile, you'll be able to figure out how to tie most flies with just a picture and a list of ingredients regardless of the order they're listed.

When you can, watch other tyers tie -- you'll pick up valuable tips that way. Also pick up a couple of good instruction books -- they help immensely. Good luck! Fly tying can add much to your enjoyment of the sport and provide further opportunities to participate (e.g., fly swaps and get togethers). In the end, I believe it will make you a better fly fisherman, as you will have given much thought to the materials making up a fly and how to maximize their interactions with water (depth, current, temperature) and fish. In any case, if you're interested in more beginner fly tying tips, just ask.

-- Mike

Good point. I've been tying so long that I am like you said, can looka t a fly, then the ingrediants and know how to put them together. How are you on rotary vises?
I use mine at times but I feel like having bullets for your gun, might not need it but at least you got it incase.

flygoddess, I don't use a "true" rotary vise, so I guess I don't know what I'm missing. Mine will rotate the fly 360 degrees, but the hook angle will not remain constant. I often rotate the hook around, though, to get a look at how things look on the bottom or to apply head cement all the way around the head on certain patterns. By the way, I also much prefer using a pedestal over a clamp, as it's much more convenient to check out the fly from different angles.

werntz, it is MUCH more economical to tie your own leaders, which for me is the primary argument for doing so. I also like the fact that, if I break off a section or two, I can easily repair the leader rather than discard it, since the sections are separated by blood knots and I can thus easily tell what dimensions I'm working with. Having said that, since self-tied leaders are SO economical, I never hesitate to discard one when it's time. In any case, as often as I fish, I prefer to sink the dollars saved into fly tying materials or other gear rather than spending it on leaders. . . .

-- Mike

Regarding purchased vs. self-tied leaders, let me also add that factory leaders are designed with a configuration that presumes you will be doing something "typical." For example, if you buy a standard 0X tippet leader, it will come with a butt section that presumes you will be fishing with, say, an 8 wt. rod. Conversely, if you buy a 5X tippet leader, it will come with a butt section that presumes you will be fishing with, say, a 5 wt. rod. But what if you want to fish a 0X tippet leader with a 5 wt. rod? Sure you can get away with the factory leader designed for an 8 wt. However, in this situation, I much prefer to tie a custom leader geared toward this weight rod. This is one other advantage of tying your own leaders.

It is also a matter of convenience, actually, believe or not. Let's say I have a factory 5X leader nail-knotted to my fly line for trout fishing. I know it will have either a .021 or .019 butt section. But what if I'm out on a lake and I decide to switch to a 1X factory leader and go after some bass instead? I will have to cut off part of the fly line and nail knot a new leader, since the factory 1x leader will have a bigger .023 butt section. However, since I carry self-tied 1X leaders with .021 butt sections that match the .021 butt sections I have on my 5X leaders, it is simply a matter of cutting the leader off, leaving some butt section intact, and blood-knotting the new leader on. I can practically tie blood knots in my sleep -- MUCH faster, a helluva lot more convenient, and it saves snipping off part of the fly line.

-- Mike

Questin for you HS. do you always use a blood knot to connect or have you every use a surgeon?

flygoddess, I prefer blood knots for all sections on a standard leader for use with a floating fly line, as I like the clean look of the knot, I've had good luck with them, and it's easy to tell when they've been infected with a wind knot, ha. I believe the double surgeon's knot, though, is just as strong, if not stronger, and I understand they're better for linking sections that aren't close in diameter. Thus, I prefer a double-surgeon's knot for tying, say, a leader for a sinking line, where the leader may only be composed of two sections that have significantly different diameters.

werntz, Rio's standard tapered knotless 1X leader actually has a .026 butt section, as compared to its 5X leader that has a .022 butt section. I prefer Orvis Superstrong monofilament myself, as it has proven to be surprisingly strong. I know Orvis' 4X leader has either a .021 or .019 butt section. I would be very surprised if their 1X leader didn't at least step up to a .023 butt section.

As far as how many leaders I go through in a season, I've never kept track but I know it's quite a few. I recall last fall I camped at a lake and fished for smallies with beadhead leeches and heavily weighted strymphs, and I must have lost at least a dozen flies/day on the rocks where the fish hung out. I ended up tying leaders by lantern light.

I generally use either a 0X or 1X tippet leader on my 5 wt. rod when fishing for largemouth bass in the California Delta.

-- Mike

I just used Rio as a typical example. Would be handy to know, though, of a factory tapered 1X tippet leader with a .021 butt section. I just don't know of any, although I have to admit I've never really searched for one. Just don't recall ever seeing one.

The blood knots held up very well. But each broken off fly generally took off part or most of a tippet and, after replacing several tippets, you end up replacing the next section up, and so on. With all the other abrasion going on on those rocks, the occasional wind knot, etc., I probably used a couple leaders/day. We were camped there through two weekends. I generally don't go through leaders that quickly either, which is why I ended up tying them -- I thought the few I had brought with me would be more than sufficient. Having a leader kit with me turned out to be a trip saver.

If I have any doubts about the looks of a leader, I WILL replace it. If I'm going to lose a good fish, I don't want it to be because of bad knots, weak leader, dull hooks, etc., etc. I try to pay very close attention to the basics when it comes to gear.

-- Mike

Mike, I downloaded it and now- I'm a dip$hit when it comes to Excel. What's next after downloading. Do you type in a length of butt section and it figures out the rest?

Hairstacker,

have you had any problems with the blood knot on flouro tippets? My experience has been that the blood knot can fail when connecting regular mono to flouro, hence I have gone to the double surgeons knot to connect my tippet.

Seeings how you appriciate Orvis. There Flouro is very user friendly, more so then others I have tried. That is where I like that surgeons knot though. Went to Cabela's today and bought the Frogs Hair kit (first off, I am not crazy about Umpqua and secondly cause that was all they had. I should have gotten the Orvis before my store closed.
Tied a couple of 9' 5X's tonight and I will tell you that first one would have had you passing milk through your nose. What a spaz. I think that I've got it now. I did find that it is easier doing the blood knot on the first 5 sections but then the double uni-knot was easier on the light stuff.
Oh yeah, I go through about 1-2 leaders a month and that is fishing 1-3 times a week. But, I get a little anal about leaders. If they have a kink or a wind knot that I have managed to get out, I will change it for the next trip. When I do get to guide I will put a new one on before they start.
I want to try the knot leaders not because of the price savings although that is going to be a bonus, but, I want to try something new.
When I deep power bait fish I just use floro fishing line in a 6lb or 4lb, but, that isn't my only form of fishing on stillwater, and I can't wait to try out these leaders. Going to a freeze you a$$ off party on a river here next Saturday and want to try a 9ft 5X with 6X tippet on my boo.
Thanks for the words and smilie face on the boats.

cardiac, it's been a while since I've looked at it but, if I recall correctly, you just select the length and tippet size from the drop down menu in the upper right and the screen will refresh and display a couple of dozen formulas for various applications.

jake, I'm not sure about the fluorocarbon to mono blood knot thing. Thus far, I've only used fluorocarbon for smallie fishing, and I haven't detected any problems. Yet anyway. I'll have to remember your advice about going with a double surgeons though. . . .

flygoddess, yep, I use Orvis Mirage as well, I really like it. As far as tying blood knots, after you tie a dozen leaders, you'll have it down to a science. I just tried to type up a paragraph of tying tips for this knot, but I ended up erasing it, as it's too hard for me to describe clearly. All I can say is (i) figure out how to best clamp down what you've done so far with your thumb and forefinger of each hand, as applicable, after each step along the way and (ii) when you draw the knot up tightly, it is not necessary to cinch up the tag ends, they will take care of themselves. In fact, I don't even hold the tag ends when cinching it up. (Before you cinch up the knot, if you clamp down on the tag ends and pull on the lines on each side of the loops you formed, you will elongate the loops -- this will keep the tag ends from slipping out of the center when you cinch the knot up.) You must use liberal amounts of saliva! And vigorously test every knot you complete -- they should be almost as strong as the line itself. Once you nail down a sequence that works for you, stay with it, and it will become second nature.

-- Mike

Call me conveniently cheap. I use tapered but also happen to have a spool of tippet I use for both extending and "salvaging" my $3.75 leaders. I kinda "standardised" on the 7.5' but theres inStances where its best to have a little extra length and iffen it gets busted or gets a wind knot its easy enough to add a little to get back to "status quo"...

D.

boingo