Hi everybody

I am scouting for a short fast rod and it seems that they have
disappeared from the market.

To benchmark my words..I mean 7 feet with "short" and XP action with "fast",
line weight around 4 I would say.

Does anybody have any recommendations?



Lorenzo

What weight and what fishing purpose?

If it's small stream trout, my personal preference is for a slower flex. I don't feel like faster flex rods load properly with so little line out of the tip.

I did have a 4pc 4wt rod built on a Rainshadow blank that had a sturdy flex, but I got rid of it for the reasons I just stated.

I don't know of a lot of 7' 4w "fast" rods out there. For inexpensive one's I know WW Griggs has a 7' 4w, but I don't know anyone who owns one. I have a 6' 3w Griggs I picked up for $25 a couple years ago. It's fast for it's size, but I've only fished it once. Didn't like it. I like the slower rods in that weight and size for the smaller creeks and rivers I fish.
Have you tried the TXL's from Sage? They have a 7' 4w but I don't think it's as fast as you're looking for. But it's a hell of a rod. I've never fished one, but just lawn casted it. Smooth. Very smooth.
You might want to check out this review.
http://www.riverwire.com/sagetxlreview.htm

Thanks all for the feedback, let me expand my point:


It seems that softer, medium action, rods are considered best at delivering
light presentation in small streams and rivers. It's also easy to understand those who appreciate
the "mending power" of a long rod, say 9 1/2 ft, it will never be equaled by a short rod.

I disagree for these reasons:

1_ A rod always "loads" when the fly line or its speed is enough, being able to gauge and "feel" the load of the
line being pulled towards us is, as we all know, essential to advancing our casting technique.
It may seem as if faster rods don't let you feel the line in the same way, especially when we don't
have too much of it out of our reel but I think that it's just a matter of getting used to one rod.
I believe in owning a couple of rods and that's it.. you don't see tennis players changing racquets or skiers
switching their skis that often. You have to get to know your instrument so to speak.
Maybe because the market is trying to persuade us that we need a dozen rods is why these rods are becoming more "general".

2_ It seems to me that most casting riddles, while fishing, are better tackled with fast
casting. When we need our line to unroll after it made its way between the branches and the water,
when we want the leader to hit the water before the line, when we want to roll cast, when we want to shoot
to avoid unnecessary false casts.. etc, most situation are better served by faster casting.

3_ A I am afraid I am a bit "old school" but light presentations should have all to do with casting technique and not much with the rod that is used.

4_ The only times when I miss a longer rod are when I want to mend across wider stretches, still
most of my current casting challenges involve laying the line in a way that won't need immediate mending.
At some point one gets over the fascination for distance, then a drag free presentation in different kinds of water is becomes a wonderful and unexhaustable challenge. There is always a point when the rod has given everything, our technique must take it from there.

How do you get a fast rod to load for a 10-15 ft cast?

Amen... I learned from two old timers who taught me how to stall a cast with an RPL+ and drop a dry from a dead stop about 8-12" above the water... it simply doesn't get any quieter... it requires a lot of practice with a less conventional technique, but it renders a fast action rod a far more versatile fishing tool than most anglers understand they can be. Closer ranges, like the 10-15' in question are handled with more of a flip cast and tailing the rod tip as a brake (or a simple roll cast)... not rocket science, just years of experimentation and practice.

I think it would be nice if folks would just answer the original question instead of interrogating the poster, it's obvious to me in how the question was asked that they know exactly what they are looking for - which I admit is unusual here.

I originally posted earlier in the thread that the disappearance of fast short rods was a reflection of the market, and will add that the market is driven primarily by newer less experienced fly fishers, unfortunately. I also posted a comparison of the TXL and SLT in 2wts, noting that the TXL in that case was noticeably faster, and that the 470-3 might be worth a look. I see cardiak mentioned it too, not a surprise in that he's clearly one of the more experienced posters here.

Let us know how you make out, Lorenzo.

TL's~

Lorenzo,

taking a quick look at the usual suspects (Scott, Winston, Sage), with the exception of the TXL, you'' have to consider 7'6-8' to open up the 4wt options, or consider a 3wt if the 7' length is critical. I also noticed that LL Bean makes the Streamlight (crisp, med/fast) it a 6'11" 4wt. Beans new line of rods are surprisingly nice... Rajeff tapers, and far better components that they used to use. Hard to beat for the price.

TL's~

He may know "exactly" what he wants. But he sure didn't tell us. There is a world of difference between wanting a fast short 4 wt for spring creek fishing and a fast short 6 wt for bass ponds.

Short, fast, 4wt... not sure what he left out? At some point we have to assume that some folks know their environments well enough to not have to be second guessed... this isn't a newbie looking for their first best trout rod ;-)

Stopping the fly in the air would take perfect timing. Most of the time you'd get a pile cast. Not the hot tip for casting upstream.

Using a softer rod to roll out the leader softly would be much more consistent. Even for a pro.

I think it's important to feel the rod load to be consistent and make soft presentations. Sure, you can get a fast rod to work everywhere, but it will be more work. Why make more work for yourself?

Bamboo and glass are great small stream rods. Not what you'd call fast rods. A dickerson rod is considered a fast bamboo rod, but it's still soft compared to a fast graphite rod.

My .02

I prefer med/fast (SLT's, SP's) myself - I find they offer the most dynamic range of use and roll cast better than faster rods do, but that's not the info he asked for. The line stalling technique works well up stream, down stream, and is excellent for cross current because it lets you side arm mend mid line up stream strongly in the air just before the line drops. I only throw the faster sticks on some still water, or for larger rivers where I'll be primarily casting cross current. The timing, like anything with practice and experience, becomes second nature, automatic.

Originally he asked for fast short rods. There's probably a good reason you don't find too many. Except for a few. They aren't that popular.

Then he went on to explain in post#4 why he likes them. That sort of opened the discussion to what our opinions are.

I simply gave mine. I agree with the majority of the fly fishing community. Shorter rods in general work better with soft-med to med action. The best roll casting rod i've ever owned was a Diamondglass. It was effortless to get long roll casts with it.

You know, now that I look at it, I must have missed the "line weight around 4" sentence in there when I originally replied.

Ah well, the rest of my answer still stands. Rainshadow makes a 4wt 4pc 7ft blank that I found to be far too fast for my liking. Perhaps it is what the OP is looking for.

Gentlemen, thank you for the information.


I think that even on a 15 ft cast a fast rod will load ( post #5), if it flexes less it doesn’t mean that it’s not loading. Granted it’s not as perceptible. It’s true that we can throw a baseball farther than a paper ball, but in my experience most nice fish are caught farther than 20 ft , there are exceptions of course but it’s hard to approach a bigger and weary tout unless one is very cautious about stalking it; how many of us squat and fish on their knees all the time?

It seems to me then that false casts often end up spooking fish, another reason why getting the line out quick, and in the way we want it, becomes crucial.
Also when we cast from 10 o’ clock to 2 o’ clock with a 7 ft and and a 9 ft the loops are simply tighter with the 7ft, it usually means a faster line.

I am not sure I agree with the assumption that soft rod=soft presentation (post # 10), I am not even sure I get “soft presentation”. I guess what we all mean is a well presented fly. That’s made of two things: silent landing and drag free for as long as possible. Lately I am trying to shoot so that the line travels, already straight after looping, with the fly in front, to pierce through tight spots. A fast rod seems to help.

Another situation: lately I am trying to pull a fly line out of the water by imparting a rotational flip, for the lack of a better description, so that you get a wave, that starts from the fisherman, picking up the line towards the fly. What it does is that it avoids “tearing” the water when we pull the line out, with 20-30 ft of line on the water I have noticed that this “tearing” spooks bigger fish. Because the line is wet you need a lot of energy to lift it this way but it’s much quieter. Also I don’t mind the “work” (post #10), I mean I love casting so in a way the more effort the more satisfaction.

I am also experimenting with what I call slow casts, trying to land a “U” upstream of the fish with the fly in between, to achieve a longer drag free drift when I know where the trout is; this has to do more with casting technique and we might discuss about that another time. It’s difficult to describe with words casting patterns that are never so clear cut and distinguishable in reality.

I did not try the 7 foot TXL but at a recent fly fishing show in New Jersey the longer TXLs seemed more “medium action” than I had in mind.
Others tell me that the TCR series is very fast but, aside from not wanting to lust for something outside my current budget, I don’t think they even come shorter than 9 ft.I will be looking out for the 6’-11 LL Bean
( post #7), the length sounds right. I have no experience with blanks, the guy at the shop suggested we ask his rod builder, only thing I wonder is whether it’s possible to choose a blank and
have an idea of what it’ll be like once it’s assembled.
Thanks to all again.

If anybody lives in the New York area, we should meet and compare notes on the water.

All that matters is finding what works for you. It sounds like a faster rod suits you.

A TXL was suggested already. Try one out if you get a chance. A 7' 4wt TXL might be just what you're looking for.

Lorenzo,

I wasn't suggesting the SLT, but was using it as a benchmark for the TXL suggestion, which is a quicker rod. Also don't confuse the ZXL for the TXL, the ZXL is pretty medium ish... on the faster side of medium and a good bit slower than the SLT or TXL which I consider med/fast. If it was a recent show, it probably wasn't the SLT as it was discontinued last year.

TCR's are 9'+... and so fast that even many who like and cast XP's well wonder "why?"

"I am trying to pull a fly line out of the water by imparting a rotational flip, for the lack of a better description, so that you get a wave, that starts from the fisherman, picking up the line towards the fly."

This is a great technique that I have played with on spooky still waters... I still primarily just use a quick tip lift with a taught line to get the directional initiation up to reduce the drag.

False casts can spook fish, and if you're throwing to cruiser rings on still water you have to pick up, change direction, and put down 2-3X the amount of line you picked up very quickly = no false cast. This is my primary application for faster sticks.

TL's~

oh sorry, I meant TXL and I will edit my post

G'day Lorenzo;

I have just purchased the Sage ZXL 7'6" 3wt. It is a 4pc and is awesome to cast. I had the SA GPX 2wt line on it and it was fantastic. short rolls to long shoots. little flicks to tight shots. Lob cast or shoot and drop.

Not too fast.
Not too slow.

Well worth a look.

well.. yesterday I bought a used 7'-6" XP, I hope to receive it soon:
I have decided to trade the extra 6" for an
action that I am familiar with, I will let you all know.

ciao, Lorenzo

...With the different strains of graphite (and now some boron mixes) ...as mentioned, you just have to experiment...each rod has its own specific flexing strength as well as weight. ...Sometimes you just have to use slightly different areas of the rod to obtain a particular type of loop...
*Hey as long as the casting puts a smile on your face lorenzo!...that's all that matters.
$.005

Here is my 2 cents. Find a custom builder in your area and get him to trim a longer blank. If he knows where and how much to trim you should be able to find an inexpensive blank that will trim to 7 feet and give you the exact action you are looking for. This will take an investment of time and a patient rodbuilder, but if you test the action after each trim you can home in on what you are in search of. Long Live the Common Cents System!

Hunter
Phillips Run Fly Rods

So.. I have now been able to try my 7'-6" XP
a few times. It fishes fine though it's not what I was
hoping for. I bought a used one on ebay and trusted that,
having always liked the XP line, I would have been ok.
I was reminded of a no-brainer: do not buy rods unless
you get to test them.
I' ll look into a custom made one.. I am not at all
familiar with the world of custom built rods but is it
possible to cut an inch or two away from the tip to get a
faster rod? I wonder whether that's blasphemy, probably is
for some.

Cheers,

Lorenzo

sorry this is my first post.
I write from Italy
here the best rods are sage xp 7,6 line 4 and zaxis 7,6 line 5 but you MUST use them with a line number DT3 particularly an SA ULTRA 4.
All you have to do is to change the way you cast.
we have a school that teach how to cast light lines with ultra fast short rod, to fish small stream.
best caster use also a DT2 to fish with the zaxis 7,6 line 5
I try to explain what you have to do.
sorry for my poor english
you have to increase the speed of the cast so you can load the rod, you begin the forward cast at one o'clock, gently increase the speed until you reach eleven o'clock then you need to accellerate from eleven o'clock to ten o'clock then gently decelerate from ten o'clock to nine
in the rear cast you do the same and stop at one o'clock
the loop in the back will be very high, and in the forward cast the fly touch the water really before the line.
with this tecnique you will be able to do the best presentation possible in stream with fast water.

The short rod advantage, some examples: speed casting; with a short rod it´s possible to make rapid cast with some change of direction provided the rod is fast enough.
Where space is restricted of course there will be less likely to run into problems when using a short rod. You usually concentrate on what is happening in the water and may forget about the branch just above you.
A shorter rod will not "magnify" casting errors in the way a longer rod will.

On the other hand; a longer rod can help you in making mends and direct or guide the line in a current, but if line is fed out from an upside position, most likely the current itself will decide the patch of the fly-leader-line.

Sorry gilberto, it doesn´t make sense to me what you write about casting in a different way.
Perhapes you have a link to a site with some pictures. I know there are different styles of fly casting in Europe; for instance in Austria and Italy you cast in a way rather different from how we cast here in Sweden. BTW some say I cast in an American way...Yes my guru is Ed Jaworowsky and his book The Cast influenced me a lot.

I found this page with some video clips.
http://www.afcs-flyfishing.com/english/English-Staff.htm
Having met Piero at a show and at the water here in Sweden in an region called Jämtland ( where he use to stay in summer and where the clips are probably shot) I will say he´s a competent caster but claiming to be among the best in the world.....? His teaching at the fly fishing show was way too intense and hurried in my and my companions opinion. And truly unique casting technique? Well, if you take such big words in your month you may be opposed. Some aerial mendings? Not so unique I think.

I didn't say that I am the best caster, I am a poor caster.
I want only to help lorenzo, saying that he could choose a short fast rod and use it with a DT number less changing the way he cast.
how he can do that is quite impossible to explain in a forum
the italian school is simfly and the site is www.simfly.it
this is a different perspective to fish dry fly in fast water.
the discussion was about short slow rods and best presentation, my post want only to say that there are people that use short ultra fast rod with light DT lines and leaders of 15 feet to obtain the best presentation possible in fast water.
And they can incrdibly do that.

[quote name='gilberto' date='May 6 2008, 03:20 AM' post='53002']
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhSLBjBarCs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfOjDhU73aw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWqxCDG-K84...feature=related

Hi gilberto, I should have told you that you used the clock analogy in a different way from the usual one. I think this was the root of my confusion.

I was objecting to some "not so good" teaching and maybe in wain and surely a bit off topic. But I get frustrated by some "experts" claiming they have invented something new when they have not. I have seen a few of them and their lack of self-criticism and lack of interest in who they address , as well as concern if their teaching make sense to their audience makes me sad.

So I took the chance with Piero and he may very well be a better instructor than I perceived him to be.

I have not made a statement on your casting which I know noting about.

About the links you provide.

No. one, yes it´s unusual to lower the rod-hand so early in the forward casting stroke. But I think most advanced casters experience a degree of freedom and do some experiments or just play around with their rod, line and leader thus this isn´t that unique but might inspire some to try it.

No. two seems like a sidearm cast and this is of course useful stuff.

No. three is some form of fast presentation and sometimes an audible presentation can provoke the interest of the fish.

Hi Magnolia, hi Gilberto


I think Gilberto is referring to a certain Italian school which, seems to me,
tends to separate all casts into either "slowed down" or "super fast".
A guy called Roberto Pragliola championed these techniques in the 80's, he gave a
name to a bunch of casts and was instrumental in spreading the TLT ( that's
how it was called: Total Casting Technique) through books and fly fishing shows.
I know because I was in Italy at the time: one of the fishermen I owe most to is
a guy who had mastered the "slow casts" to minimize drag while pursuing the usually weary Italian brown trout. In fact it's the progress done for the "slowed down" kind of casts that I appreciate to this day more than the super fast elaborations.
Some of the fishermen that came out of this "school" are very able. However I also agree with Magnolia that a few of them are too presumptuous and almost obsessed with intellectualizing and categorizing fly casting. "Pure casts" are usually possible by an indoor pool.. but almost inevitably a cast becomes a miscellaneous synthesis of typical casts when you're out on the water with a little wind, a tree..

I bought a lighter fly line and I ill soon try it on my 7'-6" XP, I am not
too passionate about very light lines ( never used a #2) but I think that a #3
should combine with the rod the way Gilberto describes.

Thanks to all again,

Lorenzo